This Week's Topic:

[twopoint]

Hi!

Question: How long does it take after you've edited and posted a fic to be able to re-read it without feeling like you're going to throw up?

(I'm seriously emetophobic, so typing the words 'throw up' is very hard for me, but no other phrase comes close to expressing my feelings on this matter.)

Comments

[questails.livejournal.com]

Do you want an honest answer or an egotistical, cheerful Leo sort of answer?

[two-point.livejournal.com]

I want both!!!

And then I'll decide between the two.

[questails.livejournal.com]

Then I shall give both, but I don't tell you which is which!

ANSWER THE ONE: Having now read a not-insubstantial amount of your fic, I can use any one of several methods of statistical analysis to show, with better than 99.8% certainty, that you aren't capable of posting something worthy of.... you know.... when reading it later. (I also despise doing... that, so I know what you mean.). Therefore you don't have to worry about it.

ANSWER THE OTHER: It's a trick question with no real answer; because the only vantage point from which you can look back on a work with complete satisfaction is that of a better one. E.g., you re-read something from ten years ago or yesterday; and you can look on it kindly because you learned from its flaws and wrote something better. It was a stepping stone, and as such, you feel like you've gone forward and no longer want to... you know... over those errors or weaknesses.

[two-point.livejournal.com]

I once subscribed to a mailing list wherein we had to use the letter v. to stand for . . .you know. My mother still v. screens movies for me. And if, god forbid, a kid in the barn does . . .you know, I am out of there so fast. Give me arterial bleeds, give me compound fractures, give me anything other than that.

1. Praise from Leos is the most substantial praise there is. Thank you. Whether this is the Leo answering, or not, I'm tacking this to my wall and staring at it.

2. Your are absolutely right. If we were contented with a finished work, we would have no desire to do more or better. Disgust is a useful and instrumental motivator.

How often do you go back and spend time with a finished visual piece?

[questails.livejournal.com]

*sadly agrees* I can handle a bleeding animal very calmly. I've seen what a dog's leg looks like after a steel-jacketed slug has been through the femur approximately (per the vet) a week prior. (The dog lived, and kept his leg, although it was rather shorter afterward.) If someone does.. that.. however, I have to flee the room, trying not to do so as well.

1. Now, you've assumed that this was the Leo answer; what if it was the unvarnished truth, hmmm? Either way you most certainly should print it out, prominently label it 'THE TRUTH' and put it someplace where you can see it as you're deciding whether to post a story or not.

2. Who but a Leo says things in such a way to imply that there is no other right answer? Still, this one could also be the truth: I'm not really a sunshine-out-of-the-ass sort, nor am I an egomaniac, therefore yes, I will tell anyone that I get disgusted with my art on a regular basis, and it helps. I am trying to train myself to use that disgust to spring off to something better, not as an excuse to drop my pencils and go play Castlevania. (I've done both, certainly.)

I frequently flinch over old pieces, scrolling past them as I hunt down a file to open in Photoshop. However it's quite rare for me to pick up an old piece again; I either solve and finish something, or drop it forever. I don't know if this is a good habit or not. Being solved-and-finished doesn't exempt a piece from making me want to... you know... but in retrospect, I have to admit that I enjoy the dichotomy: I look at it, I wince over the errors, but often I remember what it was about it that made me happy when I was drawing it, which feels nice. I want that feeling again, so I start to draw something... and the cycle repeats.

[thrihyrne.livejournal.com]

Disgust is a useful and instrumental motivator.

LOLOL. Why, yes it is. Self-disgust and 'OMG, how could I ever have written that and let it see the light of day?' and 'Why haven't I learned more?' all go together for me. I think with so many of my stories, especially ones I was reasonably proud of, I've posted, and walked away.

[sorry to intrude here on the thread; I was fascinated to see what people would say and that comment jumped out at me as such a truism, I had to say something.]

[two-point.livejournal.com]

Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes. And yes. This is what I've decided to do with the 95% of self-indulgent fic I've written. It's not up to my standards -- hell, the posted stuff isn't up to my standards, but I'm going to post it and lock it and if someone is THAT interested, I'll let them try it out. Read at your own risk and all that.

I have too much just sitting here doing nothing and most of it is all fannish, so I can't warp it into an original without a lot of re-writing.

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

You're funny! Hmmm! I am going through that revolted-by-the-story-I-just-posted period myself right now with my Ardor-in-August fic. Sometimes I actually like a story that I have written right away, but usually the best I can expect when I first finish is to hope it is better than I think it is.

But if I wait too long to look it over again, I find even more things wrong with it. My favorite thing I have ever produced, my novel, A New Day, makes me want to pull my hair out right now; I looked at it the other day to check for a point of continuity in my personal canon and I wanted to sit down and re-write the entire thing.

My answer is that I have no answer. Maybe if it were a drabble or a short poem, I could look at something and think it was as good as I could get it, but never on longer things. I usually just have to declare them finished and "off limits" at a certain point, unless I spot an obvious error or typo.

[two-point.livejournal.com]

I know my revulsion is directly proportional to hormones and general feelings of Magnificent Scorpio Certainty at any given time. But I don't mind re-reading during the editing process, but once I've declared it finished - It. Is. Finished. No more peeking, thinking or pondering.

But you are so correct about drabbles and short pieces! I was thinking about this while posting the question. Maybe smaller means less margin of error, or smaller is a like beautifully-made piece of clothing that emphasizes the author's attributes. I don't know, but I have less of a need to read my smaller fics with my nose scrunched up and my head turned to the side so I have to see the fic out of the corner of my eye.

But it is this tendency that keeps us trying for better or more or something else, which is crucial to the creative process.

I have no problem reading Your stories over and over!

[voksen.livejournal.com]

I, honestly, never like anything I write. I'll sometimes like sections of 100 words or so, but a whole fic - never. It usually gets worse with time for me, too; I'm much, much more likely to think something is okay when I finish it and then a month or three later think it's fucking garbage than have my opinion go up.

[two-point.livejournal.com]

Yes! Yes! That! And drabbles/short pieces are easier to stare at without my stomach burning.

Why the hell do we do this?

[voksen.livejournal.com]

The difference here is that your fics are awesome and mine are not, so I am being honest and you are being overly self-critical. ;)

(oh god, oh god, I have 46,000 words of weiss kreuz fic and it's all terrible)

[two-point.livejournal.com]

Oh, I can write the worse shit ever! Any goodness comes from being suddenly possessed by a stray spirit who knows how to write a descriptive paragraph.

Your golf club scene is still my canon.

I post maybe 5%, maybe less, of what I write. What about you?

[voksen.livejournal.com]

I hear people say that and my reaction is GIVE ME THE REST, WHY ARE YOU HOLDING OUT ON ME, I'M GOING TO CUT A BITCH. Pretty much the only reason I don't post things that I have is if I wander off in the middle of them due to tiny attention span and they never got finished. (Not exactly super-rare, but...) I can actually only think of one thing that I never put up and never will because it sucked, but it's long enough that it's hard to delete.

Now, while writing I often delete a lot/start over because I don't like things, but that's different.

[questails.livejournal.com]

Oh, admitting THAT was a mistake. I want this mysterious 95%, and I want it yesterday!!!

[lauand.livejournal.com]

No way. If I've taken the pain to write it, to type it up, to edit it, to rewrite it upside down, to hate its guts, I POST IT. Even if I think it's shit. I don't think I have a high standard to stick to, so I allow myself to post crap. I don't think I've ever written a good sex scene (why are they so difficult, oh, why!??), but that doesn't deter me from posting them.

As I said not that long ago in a conversation with e_p_kitty, when talking about her 164 WIPs, never to be finished because she thinks they're bad: A PERSON'S CRAP IS ANOTHER PERSON'S FERTILIZER.

Sorry for butting in. I'm aware I do this a lot.

[thrihyrne.livejournal.com]

I post maybe 5%, maybe less, of what I write.

You're hiding away writing?? I wantssssss it. Well, maybe I'm better not reading it, because I would just compare myself and come up short. But I'd love reading your wordcraft, no matter what. Everything you write that I've read has been written by a spirit that is firmly embedded in you, because everything I've read is gorgeously evocative and descriptive and makes me despair of myself.

So there. :P

[levadegratchets.livejournal.com]

Are you serious?

Never.

I don't re-read my own writing unless I'm in the mood to beat the crap out of myself, which...yes, I do.

I will pick out every last freaking phrase I hated, still hate with a passion and then beat myself to bits for posting it in the first place. ETA: Then take it down, and never post it again. Done that.

I don't do this to anyone else though, just me. This is why I love reading other people's work and never understand how writers fall so in love with their own writing. THAT really boggles my poor mind.

I'd try to be philosophical and nice about it but that's why you have Ramie.

[two-point.livejournal.com]

Seriously, why would I ever be serious?

In all seriousness, I could tell you that it was ridiculous for you to beat yourself up because I love your writing, but I doubt it would do any good (but you should listen to me!!!)

We're both extraordinarily similar in our recovering perfectionism. I once had this machine of an eventer in my barn. He was one of those warmbloods that are so well bred they look alien, like a praying mantis. He had been pushed to do the upper levels all his life and he'd anticipate mistakes to the point where he would start freaking before a mistake actually happened. When he came to that point, we'd have to stop work for the day and try again later -- so he never got very far in his next life as a lazy, fat pet for a private owner who was a violist.

One day a visitor was watching the violist and her horse work and said, "That horse needs to learn how to play blue notes."

And that way of thinking eventually worked.

We need to learn how to play blue notes.

[levadegratchets.livejournal.com]

Mmmhmm....

I'd need a brain transplant first.

Let the other signs be narcissistic. We Aries are hardass hardheads (rams).

But it's ok. I like being critical of me. It keeps me from thinking too much of myself.

[lauand.livejournal.com]

It doesn't work like that with me. Time is only a factor when talking about putting a distance between the fic and my memory of the fic, so that I can read it again instead of reciting it by heart, which blinds me to the fic itself (I think I already mentioned in a former discussion).

But the fact that something written by me strongly upsets my digestive system is more related to the fic than to time. Normally, when I finish a fic there's a short time of euphoria when I think it's my masterwork. Then, I re-read it and I realize it's not so much. Sometimes I even realize it's crap. But that's nearly instantaneous. What happens with time is that I find (specially in the longer fics) scenes and paragraphs that are CHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAP. But sometimes I find good comebacks, too (dialogs are my favourite part to write) or something witty that makes up for all the cheapness. Well, not for all, but still.

Anyway, I'm a bit of a narcissist. I like to re-read my own stuff after a while. I'm not blind to the utter cheapness, it's just that I center more on the other bits, the ones I like (even if they're not objectively good). Maybe it's because my lack of self-expectations that I can take my writing so lightly, who knows.

[two-point.livejournal.com]

You always have the most healthy outlook on things. It's not narcissism or inexperience; I think we're supposed to enjoy our work, both the process and the finished product.

In a very unhealthy way, I think I'm driven more by negative impulse than positive. So, my habits center around being immensely dissatisfied, which in turn makes me try something else. Occasionally I look at something and giggle because I'm pleased -- usually dialogue. I'm always trying to get my voice out of the dialogue, so when it really seems like there's another voice there; I know it was a success.

Lack of self-expectations is a good thing!

[lauand.livejournal.com]

I've got a huge problem with voices. Sometimes I realize that yes, the banter is fun, but it's me bickering against me! It's extremely difficult for me to take me out of the picture. For that reason Saiyuki is one of the fandoms I find the easiest to write, because the characters have very different voices (and the canon characters are very well built) and it's easier to make them distinct in both actions and dialog.

No, no, believe me, it's narcissicism. I'm deeply in love with myself. To the point that it frustrates me to no end that the rest of the mankind doesn't worship me as I do. I can't understand why not... I'm cool!

[two-point.livejournal.com]

I think you're awesome!!

And I want to squeeze you very hard now, and give you a cup of coffee. We should all adopt your world view!

[voksen.livejournal.com]

twoooooooooooooooooop!

I NEED TO TALK TO YOUUUUuuuuuuUuUUuuuu where are you it's important and awesome